Talk:Sabiha Gökçen

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Edit Warring

I see a bunch of editors (or a bunch of the same person on multiple accounts/IPs) editing back and forth. I would like to remind people that edit warring is not allowed on Wikipedia. The Three revert rule always applies, so be careful with reverting. Instead try the Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle for editing. Or at least discus your problems here in the talk page instead of in edit summaries. This will help other editors give their input on the situation.

Speederzzz (Talk) (Stalk) 13:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC about the section beginning: article in the newspaper Agos, headlined "The Secret of Sabiha Hatun"

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Should the this Wikipedia page contain the section begining: article in the newspaper Agos, headlined "The Secret of Sabiha Hatun"? 217.44.10.171 (talk) 09:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In February 2004 an article in the newspaper Agos, headlined "The Secret of Sabiha Hatun", contained an interview with Hripsime Sebilciyan, a former resident of Gaziantep, who claimed to be Gökçen's niece and that Gökçen herself was of Armenian ancestry.^[1] Sebilciyan claimed that Gökçen's birth name was Hatun Sebilciyan and that she was adopted by Atatürk from an orphanage in Cibin in Urfa Province.^[1] Sebilcyan said that Gökçen had four brothers: Sarkis, Boğos, Haçik and Hovhannes, and a sister, Diruhi (Hripsime's mother).^[1] According to Turkish-Armenian linguist Pars Tuğlacı, who knew Gökçen personally and deemed Sebilciyan's story to be false, Gökçen was born to an Armenian family from Bursa and was left in an orphanage there when her family was deported during the Armenian genocide.^[2] Tuğlacı also claimed that Gökçen later found out about her Armenian roots when members of her family contacted her from Beirut and that she visited her Armenian relatives there.^[2]

However, these claims are disputed by Turkish sources and interviews with Gökçen, as well as by her adopted sister Ülkü Adatepe, who reiterated that Gökçen and both of Sabiha's parents were of Bosniak ancestry.^[3]^[4]^[5] 217.44.10.171 (talk) 09:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. Too flimsy. Not really RFC territory at this stage though. This issue seems to have been discussed and the consensus seems to also have been no. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 19:31, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Lukewarmbeer I don't see a consensus on the talk page archive, could you provide me the specific discussion? Uness232 (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's extensive discussion and consensus against this material here. 217.44.10.171 (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see plenty of discussion for and against, but no clear consensus there. Maybe I'm missing something, but all I see is people arguing back and forth. Uness232 (talk) 20:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I think this is relevant information that is neutrally presented, along with other theories. I see no reason why Agos should be considered "far-right" or "ultranationalist" when it was founded by a leftist who favored anti-nationalist coexistence between Turks and Armenians. I also don't see any consensus for why Agos should not be considered WP:RS. Not saying it's perfect, but it is a published newspaper as good as most in Turkey, I think it meets our threshold. The only sensible argument I can see against inclusion is WP:DUE, but then consistency would require deleting other claims regarding her ancestry as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uness232 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Include the content referencing Agos, which is a regular newspaper in Turkey. It is neither far-right nor ultranationalist. The paragraph clearly states that this information is from Agos and is not presented as an absolute truth. The counter-claims are also included. This controversy itself is very notable and has encyclopedic value. Removing it would be considered censorship. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 04:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Agos is not neutral, it's pro Armenian and even admits this on its website's front page. ("Agos was founded in 1996 by Hrant Dink and a group of his friends, in order to report the problems of the Armenians of Turkey to the public.") It's a family-run paper with a checkered history of non neutrality: "Hrant Dink's son, Arat Dink, who served as the executive editor of the weekly, had been co-defendant in the cases brought against Hrant Dink for "denigrating Turkishness" on account of his managerial position at the weekly." Also, Agos is a very small circualation publication (weekly circulation of 5000). For these reasons Agos cannot be considered a reliable third party source for this (or any other) content on WP and by WP standards does not pass WP:RS or WP:NPOV. It's also dubious as to whether the Agos article even passes notability criteria due to the small circulation figues. 217.44.10.171 (talk) 12:35, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is an Armenian-run newspaper talking about Armenians. That does not make it non-neutral. Cumhuriyet is a Turkish-run newspaper that mostly talks about Turks, and has a Kemalist/civic nationalist editorial bias. That does not mean its information is unreliable. Small circulation figures are also not at all the end-all-be-all for neutrality or notability, per WP:SIGCOV and WP:RS. Uness232 (talk) 20:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Uness232. Circulation is irrelevant to reliability. The newspaper may focus on Armenians, but it does not mean that it is not reliable. Also, the paragraph says "a claim based on Agos", so it would have been okay to include it this way even if Agos had not been a reliable source. The claim is covered by the mainstream Turkish media, such as Hurriyet and Milliyet.[1][2] There was a public discussion about it, so we should definitely include it in this article, together with the counter-claims. From WP:RS: "The reporting of rumors has a limited encyclopedic value, although in some instances verifiable information about rumors may be appropriate (i.e. if the rumors themselves are noteworthy, regardless of whether or not they are true)." TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 03:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but ... include also the "disput[ing] ... Turkish sources and interviews with Gökçen [and] her adopted sister ... Adatepe". It is WP's job to gather all the available claims and give the WP:DUE weight. It is absolutely not our job to hide a public disputation that is the subject of extensive coverage, nor to pick a side in the that disputation. It is possible that too much verbiage is spent on the Sebilciyan claims, but that's a matter of normal copy-editing, and won't really be clear until the contradictory information from Gökçen and Adatepe and other unclear "Turkish sources" is integrated, and the relative balance between them (and how they are each treated in other sources) can be examined. Agreed this was not really ready for an RfC, but this one's already going with sufficient input, so whatever. PS: TheJoyfulTenmaker is entirely correct that Agos's reliability as a source of facts is irrelevant; it is not here cited as a source of facts, but stated to be the origin publication of claims central to the public disputation being documented. It's the same as "Donald Trump posted on X/Twitter that ..."; whether X/Twitter is an RS is immaterial (so is whether Trump is on the matter hand, probably; his view would given DUE weight with other views, and X/Twitter would remain the publishing locus of what he said regardles whether what he said is true/accurate/reasonable. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b ^c Dink, Hrant (6 February 2004). "Sabiha Hatun'un Sırrı". Agos. Archived from the original on 4 May 2022.
^ ^a ^b "Gökçen Ermeni'ydi". Hürriyet (in Turkish). 22 February 2004. Archived from the original on 2 August 2016.
^ Cite error: The named reference armedia was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cite error: The named reference Koser was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Fatma, Ulgen (1 January 2010). ""Sabiha Gök̨cen's 80-year-old secret" : Kemalist nation formation and the Ottoman Armenians" (.pdf). eScholarship. Retrieved 18 May 2017.

[dink-1] Dink, Hrant (6 February 2004). "Sabiha Hatun'un Sırrı". Agos. Archived from the original on 4 May 2022.

[hurriyet-2] "Gökçen Ermeni'ydi". Hürriyet (in Turkish). 22 February 2004. Archived from the original on 2 August 2016.

[armedia-3] Cite error: The named reference armedia was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Koser-4] Cite error: The named reference Koser was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Fatma-Ulgen-eScholarship-5] Fatma, Ulgen (1 January 2010). ""Sabiha Gök̨cen's 80-year-old secret" : Kemalist nation formation and the Ottoman Armenians" (.pdf). eScholarship. Retrieved 18 May 2017.

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