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Requested move 16 April 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - This is clearly a stale proposal at this point, having run since April of this year, and appears to have been superceded by other discussions ongoing on this page. As such this close is largely a formality, and is without prejudice to the outcome of any subsequently-opened discussion. Numerically there is no clear consensus in favour of moving. In terms of argumentation it largely centres around whether or not the proposed title is accurate, and whether it is concise, and again no real consensus is reflected here. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel – Per the smart suggestion from Keizers in the discussion above, this middle ground should address the concerns of both sides.

Many editors have put a lot of time into this debate over many years, so we would ask you not to vote until you have reviewed the following discussions:

Onceinawhile (talk) 14:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. NightWolf1223 <Howl at me•My hunts> 20:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, TBH this proposed change seems totally unnecessary. Umm, just this recent survey from November 2023 shows that only 8 percent of Israeli Arabs prioritize their "Palestinian identity" as the most important component of their personal identity. In contrast, 33 percent identify primarily with their "Israeli citizenship," 32 percent with their "Arab identity," and 23 percent with their "religious affiliation." Bottom line, I really fail to see the justification for the proposed renaming.[1][2] ElLuzDelSur (talk) 19:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC) ElLuzDelSur (talk) 19:03, 16 April 2024 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE (which to my knowledge does not specify the timing, only that some comments should be struck. Please avoid WP:GRAVEDANCING, etc ASUKITE 16:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note for closer, this account is a blocked sock. Selfstudier (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an additional note, they were not blocked at the time of the !vote - socks can only be struck and discounted if they made a duplicate !vote, or if their master was blocked at the time of the !vote. BilledMammal (talk) 14:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless, this vote should be fully discounted, struck or not. Selfstudier (talk) 14:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On what policy basis? WP:SOCKSTRIKE does not apply here. BilledMammal (talk) 14:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to leave it to the closer. No idea why anyone would wish to defend such accounts. Selfstudier (talk) 14:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because we have policy that we follow; if you want to change that I would likely support it, but at the moment as written it doesn’t support your claims. BilledMammal (talk) 14:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IAR, you are defending the edits of blocked socks, end of. Selfstudier (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Policy tells us when we can strike blocked socks; we don’t need IAR because we have clear policy, and if you want to expand that I encourage you to open a discussion proposing doing so. BilledMammal (talk) 14:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Struck or not, I am making it clear what I think of such edits. Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused - they are a blocked sock, no? Socks that were already blocked wouldn't be able to post. We typically go back and remove or strike content where it's by a sock. I'm not aware of a rule that a sock master has to first be blocked once and then we only delete or strike subsequently blocked puppets. From the get-go, this was a socking user. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:27, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They were socking from the start, so they were socking at the time of this – and we don't reward socking. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BilledMammal: Where are these precepts written down? Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We’re not rewarding it - as far as I can, this is their only vote in this discussion?
And the policy telling us when we can revert and strike is WP:BRV. BilledMammal (talk) 15:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it seems that WP:SOCKSTRIKE goes further than that. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SOCKSTRIKE is an essay (I linked the wrong thing above), but even it doesn’t appear to discuss contributions that are not block violations and are not double !voting (It is done to alleviate the disruption/deception caused by abusing multiple accounts.) BilledMammal (talk) 15:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is nevertheless an essay on the conduct policy, and it states: In discussions such as WP:AFD, RFCs or other !voting discussion, you should strike their [(socks)] contributions using one of several available methods. [...] The goal is to make it obvious they are a sock so when the discussion is closed, their input will not be considered. This should be done for all blocked sockpuppets and sockmasters in a discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, I agree with the comment above me. The population this article is about are known best as the Arab citizens of Israel. Some of them see themselves as Palestinian, but not most. The article should talk about all the different parts of their identity, but the title shouldn't favor one (and in this case, not the most common) over the others. Galamore (talk) 06:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposed title is unnecessarily duplicative as Palestinians are Arabs. And the claim that this is a middle ground is not true – the two "extremes" of how to describe this group are "Israeli Arabs" on one side or "Palestinians" on the other. The current title is the neutral middle ground that avoids either adjective. Number 57 08:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As I said in the last one, it is pointless to argue with a pro Israeli POV blockade and we should proceed directly to RFC on the title neutrality, which is the actual problem here. Selfstudier (talk) 13:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support as per the evidence showing that Palestinian citizens of Israel is an extremely common name in RS; the fact that there are Arab citizens of Israel who are not or do not identify as Palestinian interlaps; and so the two should be merged. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support as better than the current title, if the scope of the article is going to cover both Palestinian and non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel. We can have an article about Palestinians in Israel; we can have two articles, one about Palestinians in Israel and one about non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel; we can have an article that covers both Palestinian and non-Palestinian Arabs in Israel; what we cannot have is an article about Palestinians in Israel that doesn't call them "Palestinians," as that would be denying Palestinian identity, and I think, based on the sources in the RFC below, not following NPOV. I'm not sure that one article about Palestinian and Arab citizens of Israel is the best arrangement, but the proposed title is better for than the current title if we're going to have one article for both groups. Levivich (talk) 02:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Levivich and others in this and post discussions. It's inappropriate to pigeonhole identity, and here specifically to pigeonhole it into the POV terminology of the Israeli state while denying other aspects of the identity of the group in question: here most notably their Palestinian-ness. It was fine before the merge discussion, but given its passage, the state of affairs that is now confronted is the imposition of a fairly egregious POV framing on a diverse set of identities of a range of ethnic groups. As it stands, the title imply that the subject is solely about the internal Israeli demographic categorisation of its "Arab" citizens regardless of whether they identify as Arab or not. That might be ok if the article was solely about Israeli POV categorisation of non-Jewish demographics in Israel, but it is not, because A) there is a broader topic of identity at work, and B) because we don't aim for POV topic framings. The broad subject here is a very loose demographic grouping of ethnicities, from Druze through to mixed city Arabs/Palestinians through to Bedouins – a topic that includes both other, alternative categorisations of the group, as well as their self-identification. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Levivich and others Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as Palestinians are largely of Arab extraction to begin with. Killuminator (talk) 20:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Killuminator: Meaning what exactly? That sounds like a statement that neglects the nuance of Arab ethnicity in favour of something rather reductive and pseudo-scientific. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having only Arab in the title keeps all the nuances because it's a broader term and there's nothing ''pseudo-scientific'' in it. It's a cultural identity, not a taxonomy. Killuminator (talk) 10:37, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yet not all Palestinians identify as Arab, if we're being non-taxonomic, so ... Iskandar323 (talk) 10:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as per ElLuzDelSur, Galamore, Noah and Sir Joseph. GidiD (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, why is not the more natural and standard Arabs in Israel considered? This is the standard for all ethnic groups in Wikipedia, except for Jews, but including Arabs (Arabs in Turkey, Arabs in France, etc.). I looked into the talk page's archives and I don't see this having been discussed, at least in a formal RM, in a long time, though maybe I missed it. Super Ψ Dro 12:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea if that also allows Palestinians in Israel (interesting disambig). Selfstudier (talk) 12:44, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on your definition. Some Palestinian Christians for example are recently departed Greek Orthodox groups from Turkey. Are they 'Arabs' purely by virtue of now speaking Arabic? The definitions of 'Arab' vary wildly from purely linguistic conceptions through to flawed race science-y stuff imagining all 'Arabs' as somehow genetically connected to the Arab conquests. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:16, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are likely a very small fraction of the population. They are not mentioned nor given attention by media outlets. This article's lead itself only mentions Arabic-speaking Arabs following Christianity, Islam or Druzism. And those groups likely do not suffer the same social situation as Arabs do in Israel. In fact I would imagine, though I don't know much about the matter, that Christian and specially Druze Arabs are not treated very differently from Jewish citizens. Saying this because much of the discussiong regarding the article, its title and content seems to be related to the social situation among the groups inside Israel. So why should we weight these Greeks or other groups in the area like Armenians or Assyrians for determining this article's title? Super Ψ Dro 17:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The majority weight is Palestinian (or Muslim if you prefer), the "Arab" emphasis is Israeli POV in this case, see below RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Very incorrect, only 250,000 of the 9 million Palestinians in Israel and Palestine are Arabs, "Arab Israeli" is just another way that Israel brands its Palestinian citizens, labelling them as 'Arabs' in order to avoid acknowledging the word 'Palestinian'. Many consider themselves Palestinians, only the Bedouins call themselves 'Arabs' The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The proposed renaming does not align with WP:TITLE which emphasizes concise titles. All Palestinians are Arabs ("are culturally and linguistically Arab" as defined in Palestinians), and the suggested title change does not reflect a concise or clearer alternative. Marokwitz (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Some of these Israeli citizens are clearly not Arab, regardless of how one defines that term, and, even if they are a small number, it is crude in the extreme to label them all 'Arabs' regardless of ethnicity. Also a growing number of those who are broadly Arab, choose to identify specifically as Palestinian - regardless of how the Israeli state, the dominant ethnic group, or Israeli institutions feel about it. Again it is a crude political bludgeon, to deny that specific identity and impose one that suits the mythology of the dominant ethnic group. This is a good compromise of competing arguments in previous discussions.Pincrete (talk) 05:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Rudnitzky, Arik (December 3, 2023). "In-depth Survey of Arab Society's Views on the War between Israel and Hamas". Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies. (Full report).
  2. ^ Philologos (pen name) (23 June 2021). ""Israeli Arabs," "Palestinian Citizens of Israel," or "Israeli Palestinians"?". Mosaic. Retrieved 6 March 2024.
Note: WikiProject Palestine, WikiProject Israel, WikiProject Arab world, and WikiProject Ethnic groups have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 09:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, ha, ha! This made me laugh. Oppose of course. All of the citizens of Israel are Palestine citizens. So let's not make more confusion there. But a nice try though. :) With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 01:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Although less concise, the proposed title would better reflect the use of the term "Palestinian citizen of Israel" in many RS. Syd Storm (talk) 13:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest split, it is clear that "Arab" and "Palestinian" do not neatly overlap, with some Arabs not identifying as Palestinians, while some non-Arabs (Greeks, Assyrians, etc.) have a Palestinian identity. We can have Arab citizens of Israel about, well, Arab citizens, and Palestinian identity in Israel as a separate article about the Palestinian identity/self-identification (which could be a good place to discuss the nuances of the term). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Nevermind, looks like we already have Terms for Palestinian citizens of Israel. The preferred identity appears to be pretty debated ([1]), so I'll abstain from voting on this one. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose, Palestinian is a nationality (i.e., citizenship). Some ethnic Arab citizens of Israel can also be citizens of the State of Palestine, but others are not. In the discussion above, people often confuse ethnicity with nationality. Arab, Jew, Assyrian, Romani, etc., are ethnicities (Jew is also a religion). However, Palestinian, Israeli, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Emirati, Saudi, etc., are nationalities. Please don't confuse them! --Aldij (talk) 15:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aldij: Ethnicity is just a parallel category of identity. It's also intangible, though it is sometimes the habit of the more racist societies out there to portray it as more tangible. In this context, the overuse of the terminology of "Arabness" is largely a reflection of the Israeli state's highly racist and very much POV insistence on categorising all of us citizens not as "Israelis" but instead in terms of crudely construed ethnic categories. It's as obtuse as it is ahistorical: obviating, for instance, the existence of historical realities such as the existence of an Arab Jewish population in Palestine – a social category that confounds modern Israel's narrowly delineated categories of presumed racial identity. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Iskandar323 Of course, I agree with you that ethnicity is a much more complex and multi-component concept than nationality. Nationality is simply determined by a country's nationality (citizenship) law. Ethnicity can be linguistic, religious, racial, cultural, or a combination of them. There are Arab-Jewish ethnicity, Maghreb-Jewish, Arab-Assyrian, Arab-Christian, etc. Palestinian, on the contrary, is a nationality. There is no Palestinian citizens of Israel. If you say Palestinian citizens, you already imply citizens of the State of Palestine (which by the way may be not only Arab by ethnicity, see Category:Palestinian people by descent). Aldij (talk) 16:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not at all on that last point. The Palestinian people and Palestinian identity both exist independent of the State of Palestine, which was only incorporated in 1988. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you mean that the term "Palestinian" historically referred to any citizen of Mandatory Palestine, then I agree with you. However, if we are talking about the post-1948 era, the term "Palestinian" refers only to citizens of Mandatory Palestine and their descendants who reject Israeli national identity. They can still be Jewish, Arab, or of any other ethnic identity. --Aldij (talk) 17:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In the context here it simply refers to individuals who identify as being part of the Palestinian people who happen to live within Israel. "Palestinian citizens of Israel" is a ubiquitous term, as you will see from past discussions and extensive scholarly literature. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:28, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. An ngram [2] and sources presented elsewhere in this discussion show that Palestinian citizens of Israel is actually the more commonly used term for this these days. So if we do nothing else, we should probably move the page to Palestinian citizens of Israel. However, the point has been made above that these two categories don't necessarily 100% overlap. As such, I think the proposed title - even though it isn't as common as either Arab citizens of... or Palestinian citizens of... - should get the nod as a descriptive name encompassing both identities and everything in between. I'd suggest that the present title is actually third-best in terms of our WP:AT policy so some sort of move should be made here.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - per Amakuru, and also agree this should just be named Palestinian citizens of Israel, as the non-Palestinian Arab citizens and or residents already have individual articles , eg Israeli Bedouin, Lebanese people in Israel, Israeli Druze, and so on. nableezy - 05:08, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Military law

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Lede: "Following the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight, the Arabs who remained within Israel came under Israeli citizenship law," this sentence seems to claim to start from 1948 while jumping to 1966, conveniently avoiding mention of how the remaining Palestinians were put under military law and were non-citizens. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or were they citizens from the start that were put under martial law until 1966? Makeandtoss (talk) 11:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overuse of the Amnesty International source?

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There seems to be extensive use of the Amnesty International source as the sole source for many sections of the article. Ergzay (talk) 23:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you say which sections? It doesn't look like "many sections" afaics. Something wrong with Amnesty? Or the material being cited to them? Selfstudier (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mass reversion

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@Galamore: Care to explain why you indiscriminately reverted all of my edits? I would like to see a reason given for each edit. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have a stable lead that is balanced, covers different aspects of the Arab-Israeli community, including their views, identity, and more. With your changes you made really problematic additions and removals. Your version incorrectly labels Arabs in Israel as Palestinians, and we have seen on this talk page that the use of this term to refer to the entire community was rejected in RfCs and discussions again and again. After your changes the second paragraph became focused mostly on the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, which is not relevant to this article about the Arabs of 1948. You also introduced loaded terms such as "discriminated" that harmed the neutrality. So all in all the changes have not improved the article but have made it less neutral, confusing and in parts irrelevant. Galamore (talk) 08:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore: No such thing as we can't change the lede because it is stable. As for labeling Arabs in Israel as Palestinians, the change in title was subject to no consensus, which hsa nothing to do with the body. My changes to the second paragraph actually trimmed huge chunks that elaborated on Palestinians' status in Jordan, WB and GS, which have nothing to do with Arab Israelis. There is no such thing as "loaded terms;" if RS have used them then WP will. Please give me specficic examples on each of your reverts and base your arguments on RS and WP's guidelines. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The stable lede was large and unwieldy. I’ve restored the trimmed version, except the first paragraph per concerns above, which I only removed the last sentence for being a duplicate of the last lede paragraph. starship.paint (RUN) 23:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the critique being made by Galamore above. Arab citizens of Israel are Israeli and not Palestinian as far as their nationality. I think this version of the lead seems to remove mentions of Jordan and Egypt which is problematic, as well as rendering West Bank citizens effectively stateless. Andre🚐 01:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore: Sorry, I don't understand your reversal of the entire second lede paragraph which stated "per talk page discussion". [3] @Starship.paint: said that they agreed with your concerns of the first lede paragraph, while @Andrevan: said they agreed with the critique that Arab Israelis are Israelis. That was not a green light to re-revert everything in the second lede paragraph.
Given that this article is about Arab citizens of Israel, and not the citizenship status of Palestinians across the Levant, @Andrevan: can you please elaborate why you think it is important to mention Jordan and Egypt at the expense of other information relating to Arab Israelis, namely how they were put under military rule until 1966 and discriminated against per RS? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore: Pinging one more time. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the question? Your changes were reverted since they did not gain consensus. Galamore (talk) 08:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Galamore: That is incorrect. My changes were reverted by you, then partially restored by Starship.paint [4], then re-reverted again by you [5]. Why did you re-revert the entirety of the second lede paragraph where no such objections to the entirety of that paragraph had been presented on the talk page? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, sorry, I don't know if I saw that there was a question for me here? I think an important aspect of Arab citizens of Israel is their relationship to Jordan, which was the other half of Mandate Palestine, and Egypt, which is closely related to Israel vis the 1967 war as well as historically. I don't think it's a zero-sum game per se. We can also mention that they were under military rule and discriminated against. Andre🚐 20:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrevan: But this article is about the Arab citizens of Israel, not the status of Palestinian citizenship across the region, so why should this be mentioned at all? This is important because the lede is a summary that should be 250-400 words,; currently it exceeds 500, which makes it unreadable and incoherent. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems relevant to me. Wasn't there just a big RFC above about whether they are Palestinian citizens of Israel? Arab citizens of Israel is a closely related topic to Palestinian citizenship. Andre🚐 21:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
which was the other half of Mandate Palestine is a mistaken statement. That was a propaganda meme in early Zionism – the myth of the "first partition". Our articles on the topic explain the reality, that Transjordan was added to the mandate document as a legal convenience, but under an entirely separate administration with different objectives. It was never part of the legal entity of Palestine. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I didn't know that, but if it was added to the mandate in 1921 or 1922, then it was still part of the mandate by the 40s, when some Arabs became Israeli citizens? See also Jordanian annexation of the West Bank in 1950? Andre🚐 22:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrevan: Despite being part of the mandate (mandate as in document, not as in geopolitical entity) Transjordan was still a separate state apparatus with its own nationality law. Jordan gained independence in 1946 and then extended its citizenship to Palestinians of West Bank in 1950. So neither of these periods play a role in the citizenship of Palestinians pre-1948 or the citizenship of Palestinians within Israel post-1948. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 September 2024

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Within the infobox, please correct the Arabic name,

المواطنون الفلسطينيون في إسرائيل → المواطنون الفلسطينيين في إسرائيل

The adjective gets the nominative case of the noun — 🧀Cheesedealer !!!⚟ 05:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. kemel49(connect)(contri) 09:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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