Talk:1982 Lebanon War

I think the " Cold War Perspective " section is unnecessary

" According to Abraham Rabinovich, the complete dominance of U.S. and Israeli technology and tactics over those of the Eastern Bloc was to have been a factor that hastened the demise of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union.[80][82][dubious – discuss] However, this was not the first confrontation in which Soviet weaponry had been outmatched by American weaponry. In many of the Cold War conflicts[which?] the Americans and their allies had superior technology. Nonetheless, the gap between the First World and Second World weaponry was more apparent in the 1980s and weighed more heavily on Second World leaders. "

Implying the 1982 Lebanon War somehow contributed to Perestroika or the collapse of the Eastern Bloc is beyond silly, Soviet Military equipment was being used effectively in numerous other conflicts at the time and Soviet Military equipment/Soviet allies had always suffered higher losses compared to their American counterparts.

War? It was the beginning of occupation.

My comments from months ago in this topic were deleted on this talk page, which is weird.

Renaming article to 1982 occupation, instead of war.

Someone is using b o t to delete my talk comment.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 August 2024

I request "Total Lebanese" in the Infobox for casualties3 be changed to "Total Casualties". This figure is from the Lebanese authorities. The article section (1982 Lebanon War#Lebanese, Palestinian, and Syrian casualties) makes it clear that this figure is for all casualties, not only Lebanese but also includes Palestinians. Thanks 92.26.8.150 (talk) 09:41, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Bunnypranav (talk) 14:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@EnfantDeLaVille: Why did you restore background information to the opening paragraph which must be kept neutral and general? [1] And why did you remove the Israeli military's role in facilitating the massacre, not just backing the Phalangists? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

What are your sources that Israeli forces faciliated the massacre, not just backed the Phalangists?

and what are you sources to your version of the text, that outrage at the Israeli military's role in facilitating the massacre led to its withdrawal?

Please share sources to your statements. I don't think they are supported by the majority of sources. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 10:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: Sabra and Shatila massacre: "As the massacre unfolded, the IDF received reports of atrocities being committed, but did not take any action to stop it. Instead, Israeli troops were stationed at the exits of the area to prevent the camp's residents from leaving and, at the request of the Lebanese Forces, shot flares to illuminate Sabra and Shatila through the night during the massacre." Makeandtoss (talk) 10:50, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Listen, I think you're wrong, but I'm not going to argue. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. But if you're absolutely sure that's what the majority of reliable sources say, do what you understand. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 11:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: There are direct quotes from RS in the massacre's article supporting the claim, so I will restore that given your non-objection. I am still waiting for your response however on why background information was move up to the opening paragraph which must be kept general? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:26, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@EnfantDeLaVille: I will also take your non-response on the question as another non-objection? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Any other opinions? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I read the sources. They say nothing about IDF facilitating the massacre, that's false. Galamore (talk) 10:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Galamore: Lighting up flares in the night and surrounding the refugee camp while the massacre ensued is indeed facilitation.

• LATimes is an RS per WP: "As a purely gratuitous bonus, Sharon and his army later facilitated the massacre of hundreds of Palestinians at the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila," [2]
• Cambridge University Press book: "The IDF allowed the militia access to the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and facilitated the massacre" [3]

@EnfantDeLaVille: As for the phrasing you mentioned, I am not changing the phrasing, merely asking why you restored background information to the opening paragraph where it does not belong? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:EXTRAORDINARY, "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources". Mentioning just two sources, one being an opinion article using 'whitewashing' in its title, and the other a paper exploring the radical-left group Breaking the Silence, is clearly not sufficient to support such an extraordinary claim, especially since it does not seem to reflect the prevailing view. This should be fixed too on the Sabra and Shatila article Galamore (talk) 10:30, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The assertions that the IDF provided illumination for the Phalangists, and that the IDF realised what was going on a long time before they stopped it are not in the least extraordinary. They are findings of the Kahan Commission. Zero^talk 11:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t understand, Israel’s illumination of the camps during the massacre and its encirclement are universally accepted facts even by Israel’s own state commission. There is no denying this. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow. Jumping from the commission's 'universally accepted facts' to the claim that 'Israel facilitated the massacre' (when the same comission found Israel 'indirectly responsible') reads like WP:SYNTH. and, applying the contentious 'facilitated' claim based on an op-ed and another source tangentially related to the topic violates WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Use of the term "facilitated" would need much much stronger sourcing to support that interpretation in a way that won't be synth or extraordinary. I don't see any base, at all, for using the framing suggested here by Makeandtoss. ABHammad (talk) 13:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

In no way is Israel’s role in facilitating the 1982 Sabra and Shatila massacres by surrounding the camps, illuminating them, and allowing Phalangists to commit the atrocities disputed or considered an “extraordinary” claim. This is undisputed in RS, even among Israeli sources:

• Israeli-American historian Omer Bartov, one of the world’s leading authorities on genocide [4]: “In 1982, hundreds of thousands of Israelis protested against the massacre of the Palestinian population in the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in western Beirut by Maronite Christian militias, facilitated by the IDF.”
• Israeli Magazine +972 [5]: “During the 1982 Lebanon invasion, hundreds of thousands of Israelis took to the streets to protest the Sabra and Shatila massacre, perpetrated by Phalangist militias but wittingly facilitated by the Israeli army.”

Other RS:

• Ethics as a Weapon of War: Militarism and Morality in Israel published by Cambridge University Press [6]: “Several hundred Palestinians were killed in this massacre by the Phalangist militia. The IDF allowed the militia access to the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and facilitated the massacre by launching flares.”
• A Landscape of War: Ecologies of Resistance and Survival in South Lebanon published by University of California Press [7]: “The massacre of Sabra and Shatila (September 16–19) soon followed, facilitated and overseen by the Israelis and implemented by the Phalangists and the Lebanese Forces.”
• Refugees of the Revolution: experiences of Palestinian exile published by Sage Journals [8]: “This deflation of hope began when the PLO was forced to leave Beirut in 1982, followed by the Israeli-facilitated massacres in Sabra and Shatila camps, the withdrawal of Gulf Arab support resulting from the 1990 Gulf war, and the 1993 Oslo Agreement which tended to ignore refugee agency and rights.”
• By all means necessary: Protecting civilians and preventing mass atrocities in Africa published by PULP [9]: “One high-profile case involved a criminal complaint filed in Belgium in 2001, against Israeli military officials including Ariel Sharon, then Prime Minister of Israel, for his role as Defense Minister in the 1982 massacre of hundreds of Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila neighbourhods by Lebanese Phalangist militiamen, a slaughter facilitated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) then occupying Beirut.

Now that verifiability has been demonstrated, we can move on to more important matters. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:21, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 September 2024

Please spell out IDF at first usage and link to IDF page. Thank you. Bdbarb (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Rainsage (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)